Matt Leitz is a born entrepreneur—he even thought he invented social networking. Clearly, he didn’t, but he brings that passion to his role as president of Clever Investor. He shares with Clate and Scott the struggles his company faced along the way—like losing every customer’s credit card information—as well as the big wins, like helping customers get results and taking a six-week vacation.
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Matt Lietz: One of my all-time favorites is Bob Dylan. He has a quote that says, "A man is a success if he wakes up in the morning, and he goes to sleep at night, and in between he gets to do what he wants to do." That was not the case for the first how every many years [overlapping conversation].
Clate Mask: Did it start that way?
Matt Lietz: No it did not start that way.
Clate Mask: That's Matt Lietz sharing his version of success, and hear how he got there on today's episode of Small Business Success.
Scott Martineau: Good morning everybody, welcome to the Small Business Success. Podcast. I'm Scott Martineau, this is Clate Mask. We're co-founders of Infusionsoft, and today we've got Matt Lietz who's here from Clever Investor. Matt, good to have you.
Matt Lietz: Good to be here.
Clate Mask: Thanks for being here, Matt.
Matt Lietz: Yeah, super excited. Thank you guys for having me. Truly a privilege.
Clate Mask: Matt, tell us how you got started, and what was the impetus for it, and what was your – what's your founding story here?
Matt Lietz: Going way back. This was I guess way back in the Internet world. There was a point and time where I thought I invented social networking.
[Laughing] I was yeah, we're going to make these web pages and people can post pictures, and share, and I hadn't heard of a little thing called Frienster. At the time actually I had a buddy who told me he was like, "Dude, that's called My Space. You should look it up." As a matter of fact, I went to MyPlace.com, and I'm like this place is lame. So needless to say I didn't invent social networking, but what was interesting is I started some technology, and it was the social networking technology for a different niche.
I had a buddy who was a real estate investor who was doing really well. He wasn't – he needed a little help business wise; so I was paying the bills by helping him flip houses, and do that kind of thing. Long story short that business was the first one that did anything of significance, and as fast as it grew it fell apart even faster. Ball of flames, it was like I could do a podcast of this thing just crumbling.
I didn't necessarily have any attentions of staying in the industry that I work in, but I got a call from a gentleman named Cody Sperber, a guy who's in the Phoenix area a real estate legend. It's just what I loved about him is he had an authentic passion and skill for teaching, for taking a complexed concept of investing in real estate, and really making it simple and fun. He just had a great story, family man, Navy guy, and I'm I can get behind this. Teamed up with Cody, we just – we went at it hard, had a – obviously, I told you guys the product launch.
But since then it's been an amazing ride. It's been a lot of fun, and it's – starting businesses anybody who's ever done it knows it can be the most painful and gut-wrenching and challenging thing that you would ever do. But at this point, I don't know that I could ever do anything else. I've just really – I just love getting a group of people together with a common mission, and just doing something big.
It's what I'm all about.
Clate Mask: That's cool. Awesome. You're right, Scott and I, we talked to entrepreneurs all the time and they're the – that enthusiasm and passion to take what you do out in the world, and see how that works, how it plays out in the market, how you get to serve customers. But just getting to do what you love to do that's the fun. That's what we're all drawn to that.
Matt Lietz: It's worth all the late nights.
Clate Mask: Yes, totally, and it – and as you said it's hard. It takes a ton of work, tenacity, grit. It's just – it's tough. I was – I don't think people realize before they get into it or certainly when you talk to people who have been in it less than a year, and they're just like, "Holy crap, why didn't somebody tell me that it was going to be this hard." It's just – it's so tough, and yet it's worth it to push through it. It usually takes a couple – two or three years to get through that initial stage. But when you do it is amazing, it's awesome.
Scott Martineau: I just – I've been with Infusionsoft for a very long time, and I think I'm the classic example of a customer who didn't know what the hell they were doing. The only time I ever…
Clate Mask: You're the only one.
Matt Lietz: Right. Really. But it was back in the day, you guys have come such a long way since then just in terms of the application, and your support as well is out of this world. But for me I just as a guy I would log on to see how much money we made, and that was it. Or how much money we didn't make, and that was all that I did. It reached a point where we had – and this was after using the application for several different businesses, we reached a point where we had hired so many consultants to build out what we wanted to build. I'm – admittedly I think a lot of the problems were my fault, because I'm that big thinker. The one cool think about Infusionsoft has always had is just the capability to do whatever you can imagine doing. That you build it the right way from the get-go.
Clate Mask: Early doctors always loved it, because they could just do anything.
Scott Martineau: Anything. No, actually making it work though is a different story. [Overlapping conversation]
Matt Lietz: But it gave you that capability, and we hired consultant after consultant, which I will not we're not certified consultants, that there were "consultants," and our application became somewhat of a mess. It was we're trying to do all these cool, fancy things, but it was – it was like building on a bad foundation, and actually, the thing that really was the straw that almost broke the camel's back was one of our "consultants" somehow managed to lose all of our credit card data. So here we are a small business, small businesses payroll to payroll, we're just getting by.
Clate Mask: We know the feeling.
Matt Lietz: On a different scale, right; it never ends.
Clate Mask: No, when we were in our early days we missed payroll a couple of times because credit card company – merchant account provider held onto our money.
Matt Lietz: Felt that same pain.
Clate Mask: It's awful, you got to talk to your employees and say we're so sorry
we're not going to be able to make payroll because we had a really good sales weekend and, the credit card company's holding onto the money.
Matt Lietz: I've experienced that exact same thing, Clate.
Clate Mask: But that's not what happened with this situation. He actually lost the credit card.
Scott Martineau: Lost the credit card. So we're picking up the phone and calling people and saying would you mind; it was horrible.
Clate Mask: A great conversation.
Matt Lietz: It brought us to our knees, and I was – when I say I was so close to just saying you know what, forget Infusionsoft. Let's just go with something simpler, it has all the bells and whistles, but I don't know how to use them anyway. Nobody's able to help me do what I want to do. Then it was that moment when you see on TV where the clouds part and the little birds come chirping, and you guys came out with a campaign building. So now all of a sudden a non-tech guy like me who's got these great things that they want to do is able to just drag some boxes, take some circles, put them all together.
We decided you know what let's stop depending on other people to do it, and I'm just going to roll up my sleeves, and I'm going to do this thing myself. So we shut down our existing Infusionsoft account, which didn't have any recurring billing going on anyway, and opened up a brand new one, clean slate, and I actually – we're here local so I had the benefit of being able to come into the office and I hired a coach. I hired somebody to really just take me through it and learn, and I went through every single inch of your application, found just – really learned it from the inside out, and it was a long, grueling process. But when we came out the other end we built something that to this day is our foundation. We use Infusionsoft for everything. It – not only marketing automation, but we have a sales floor that uses the CRM, and I can say that at this point I believe we're using every single function of Infusionsoft. It's been quite a turnout for sure.
Clate Mask: That's awesome. So I'm curious, was that the low point of your business? If you take Infusionsoft out of that what was the low point of your business?
Matt Lietz: I got a good one for you. We actually were just – we were at Traffic and Conversion Summit last week having this same exact conversation, and so when we got going with Clever Investor I'd been in a very similar business previous, and we had a lot of success launching products. So rather than just having a soft rollout we do the whole thing where we give a week of content and training, and really get people amped up. Then we wait for the big moment, and we open the cart, and then we close it a week later.
A classic product launched, and it was a cool, new technology, and just people wanted it. We, first week knocked it out of the park. People were begging us to sell us this product; no, wait until the cart opens on Monday. So the whole thing culminates, Monday evening we have a webinar where we demo the product, and then we say go, and people all go buy. We were expecting to do $500,000 in sales, and this is brand new business, we were all in on it.
All of our energy, all of the money, everything that we had was on this product launch. So Cody Sperbur, who's the founder of the company, and he's the face, he's the reason why I'm even still in this industry. He was manning the webinar, he's the guy that was giving the webinar. Cody was looking at it, and we actually had two webinar lines, because we had so many people register, and both of them were over booked. So we're expecting to have 1000 people on each of the webinars.
It’s the moment of truth, everything – it's okay let's do this, and we noticed that one of the webinars a message keeps flashing up that says Bob tried to join and couldn't join, Sue tried to join and couldn't join, and we're like why is it stopping at 100. We realized that the webinar person had booked the wrong webinar line, and it cut it off at 100. So that's 900 people who were sitting there with there with their money waiting to buy our products. So we freak out, Cody flips out and understandably, that's a tough situation.
So while we already lost one webinar, Cody doesn't realize that he didn't hit the mute button. So here we are with 1000 people on the other webinar waiting for the thing to start, and he's throwing out a few things he probably should have said on live radio. His kid's knocking on the door, he's "Put that kid away," and just the whole thing is hysteria. Then we start seeing the comments come through [overlapping conversation].
Scott Martineau: We can hear you.
Matt Lietz: Yeah. So it was with – I would safely say, and it was early one too. This was – and it was one of those make or break situations, and you guys know every business has this – it's the gut check, it's what are you made of, it's you expected all this, and this is what happened. What are you going to do? I'm proud to say we pulled the team together, and we didn't do – hit the goals that we wanted to hit, but we definitely did respectable.
From that it was that big lesson where if we can turn that around we can do anything. So the low point is you guys know is so often also the biggest lesson that really can propel you to where you want to go.
Scott Martineau: It's so fun to laugh about it.
Matt Lietz: Yeah.
Clate Mask: I was going to say it's always good to look back and be able to actually get through all of that, and talk about what you learned from it, and how it shaped the business in the future. When you're in that moment it's like we're done, we're not getting through this, this is over.
Matt Lietz: I'm not going to act like I didn't cry. I definitely shed a few tears.
Clate Mask: So low point you made it through the rough webinar experience, which by the way we could commiserate with you on that. We have some real winner of webinars. We've done dozens if not hundreds of webinars at this point, and in the early days, they were a little rough.
Matt Lietz: I actually remember us trying to figure out – this is a previous business, but trying to figure out the webinar technology, and it came down to us taking two old school telephones, we _____ them together backward with rubber bands, and it's funny.
Some people are still fooled to think I'm a technology guy. So maybe we'll let that secret out.
Clate Mask: They're – the good thing is there are probably a lot of listeners out there who have the webinar – the terrifying webinar experience. Some – by the way some people – I talk to people all the time, I'm like, "Look, group teaching, group selling is killer. You got to do this," and some people just won't do it. They're so concerned about the challenge. So kudos to you guys for actually doing that as one of the first things you were doing in your business because it really does have a massive impact when you get it right. Of course, you're going to mess some things up in the early going when you're doing it. We had our fair share of those things and still do. You know how many details you've got to get right.
Matt Lietz: So many things can go wrong, and now we – we'll still do live webinars for training and for fulfillment. But when it comes to selling we automated the whole things. There's – it just runs three times a day, 365 days a year, nothing ever screws up.
We have all sorts of – just get a little campaign builder, it's depending on if they watch or don't watch or how much they see, different sequences will trigger. So we've eliminated all those kind of error.
Scott Martineau: Yeah. The automated webinar is a whole new level, which is awesome. So good for you guys, that's great. So tell us – you took us through the pain of the rough webinar. Tell us what the high point has been for you when you think about the success of the business. What's a high point?
Matt Lietz: High point; I would say probably my highest point, and happiest moment in this business. There's a gentleman, his name is Louis, and had been to every event we'd ever throw, he bought every product we ever offered. This guy had it all. He was – we help people invest in real estate, this – there's nothing else that he could have possibly needed. But at the same time he wasn't having the success, and at one of our events I sat down and I said, "Louis, let's talk about this. I love you, you're a great customer. But let's stop buying things and start getting some results.
What can we do here?" I'd say the happiest, most rewarding moment in this business has been at an event where Louis saw me down the hallway, and he's just – this guy is a shy, quiet, almost afraid of his own shadow a little bit kind of guy. Louis saw me down the hallway, and he just came running at me, just – he literally tackled me. I fell on the ground, and I'm like, "What is going on here man?" I'm trying to act important, and he reached into his pocket, and he pulled out a check – sizeable check, five figures, and just – tears of joy is in his eyes. This is a guy – and it's the money's great, but this is a guy who had just a life change. At that moment when he did that, that thing that he'd been so scared to do he realized he could take on the world, and it was – I don't recall ever having a moment of pride and joy in this business like that.
It was really something special.
Scott Martineau: That's fantastic.
Clate Mask: Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. A lot of times as business owners we talk about the success in terms of growth or the revenue attainment, we're talking about employee growth or moving into a new office. Then sometimes you'll hear business owners talk about lifestyle, and how it's affected their life. The thing that's the most emotional though is when you see the work you do in the world impacting customers, customers are totally feeling the benefit, and that's where it's this is why we started in the first place. To be able to help customers have a great experience or a great outcome that you get to see that manifest itself, and it's totally valuable. It's just so rewarding.
Matt Lietz: I love that our company and your company have that similar mission, and just walking into your office building it's very clear that's what you guys truly do this for, and it's everywhere.
So I'm – I couldn't agree more that's the biggest satisfaction, because the money comes, right. You do right to serve your customers and do a great job, it'll flow. But it's also hard when – I know when you're getting going at first it's – you can't pay the bills with customer satisfaction. You really – it does get real and it's hard to not get into that mind trap of got to make money. It's a little bit of a delayed gratification, but I couldn't agree more.
Clate Mask: Cool, thanks for sharing that.
Scott Martineau: So what do you think – what's your philosophy about the more important characteristics of an entrepreneur? You got to deal with…
Matt Lietz: Besides what Clate just mentioned tenacity is number one above all else. But most important characteristics, I would think of a piece of advice that was given to me by an old mentor, and I – at the time the business I was starting was just sputtering and just not really going anywhere. I came to him and I was just having that being vulnerable moment, this sucks, I hate this, and his thing was,
"Matt, I'm just going to be honest with you. It's going to be like that forever. It's not a matter of whether you're going to deal with challenges, it's a matter of how you look at those things," and he said, "the moment it will all change for you is when you learn to really enjoy those challenges and laugh at them. Get your head out of the muck and just step back and look at it and say that's – isn't that interesting, and just chuckle." That's the kind of perspective I think since that moment I've been able to carry on, and I don't – I couldn't really think of anything better to tell people.
But from a more functional perspective, and I just want to make sure to get this in there, because I think it's so big, especially with the Infusionsoft crowd, I feel like a lot of small business owners focus entirely too much on traffic and generating traffic. The reason that I say that, and I don't mean to marginalize the importance of getting traffic, but the thing about it is traffic can be easy. Google's got plenty of it, Facebook can – there's ways to get traffic.
Obviously, to be good at it takes a specialist, but I always recommend that people focus a lot more time and attention, especially early on, on conversion. What is – so you send somebody to a web page. What's there? What's the offer? What's your conversion metrics? Then more importantly, and this is I think where a lot of people give up too early, and I think a big part of the beauty of Infusionsoft is that initial offer might not recoup enough money to make a positive return on your marketing investment. Right?
Scott Martineau: That's right.
Matt Lietz: It's – if you do you're – gold mine. You hit the jackpot. You're something, but the reality of it is you're probably going to make a fraction of that back initially, and then you've got to really build up your follow up sequences. Both with your marketing automation, with campaign builder, and also having somebody that's good on the other end of the phone or whatever means to really do the selling.
So I just – I couldn't stress more to really focus on the conversion factor, and then once you figure out what it is to maximize every single person that lands, it's – if you can pay $1 for traffic and you get $1.25 back you don't have to be a genius. Buy more traffic, but until then don't worry so much about how you're going to get people to your phone.
Scott Martineau: Yeah. That's great advice.
Clate Mask: It's funny because you think about when I talk to business owners that are in that struggling stage they have this – they have a relationship with salesmanship, the function of selling in their business. That's not healthy, they're usually – they're in a place where – and so it's much more appealing to do the traffic work than the conversion work, because the conversion work is where you actually have to be accountable to did we convert this prospect into a customer or not. Sometimes that's over the phone. You've got to do live sales work, other times it's through our words in print or online.
But if you can't – if you don't master that ability to convert it's going to be a short business, this thing's not going to go anywhere. Yet, so many people get enamored with their traffic or the product, and they miss on the key thing. It all starts with being able to sell. So I appreciate you pointing that out. Particularly in an online business there is a tendency to drive traffic, traffic, traffic and miss on the salesmanship that occurs in the conversion process.
Matt Lietz: I love that you guys are really starting to train people more up on that, because you know in order to use all these cool tools you need to have people that get into your _____. This is just from my experience having worked with a variety of people in that online space; they'll forget about other means of sales. Whether it's direct mail or phone sales, and I really think that if you're only depending on the online world it's tough. It's just really competitive; you've got to be able to put it together.
Scott Martineau: The one question people have a lot is when is it the right time to hire that first employee, and in that case a salesperson. So how did you make that jump? Or what was it that pushed you over the edge?
Matt Lietz: I just think, and this is – I get a very similar question to this, because we train people on real estate, and they always say, "When's that time where you go…" But it's when your time is more valuable doing something else; so you feel like you're losing money with every minute. You'll know that feeling internally. It's like I should not be stuffing these envelopes right now. I'm missing over here where I can be doing sales and marketing, and so it's as much as possible. I don't – because I think people also can be too quick to make that move, to quit their job or hire people, and then you run out of money, and then you're up a creek. So I just think when you know in your gut that you're leaving money on the table because you're trying to do it all yourself.
Clate Mask: Yeah. You said a minute ago if you doing more teaching about what people need to do in that conversion process, and that – that's
something that for us over the last 10 plus years we can – we look at each other sometimes and we're like how did we get so fortunate to be right in the middle of what works for small business. Because that's where we are. We get to see tens of thousands of businesses, what works, what doesn't work, and over the years we've been able to do that. We got to a point not too long ago.
It was last year where we had grown tired of the consistent remarks we'd heard that we want you to teach of more of the strategy, don't just give us software. Teach us more of the strategy. We got to the point where we were like we always said our – everybody – partners do that, or you figure that on your own. We realized that's just embrace that, let's not – we don't – we certainly don't fault the customer for feeling that. We just thought – for a long time we thought that's not necessarily our responsibility to take that on or maybe are we really the right people to do that.
Then we're like, "Yeah, we are, we see all the stuff that works. So let's codify all of this, let's make it possible for our customers to understand the strategy of sales and marketing automation. As opposed to just the technical how-to." Of course, we would give some of that in everything from support calls to coaching. You mentioned you did some coaching early on. But we've created this method, this mob as a success method, that customers can follow. It helps them identify where they are and say what do I do next.
But it's come from as you said just seeing what works, it's watching what works, and being in a position where we see it in their application, we see it on the phone, in conversation, at icon, at events, and it's a ton of fun. But it is critical, because so many people they get software, but they don't know exactly what it is that I need to do strategically with the software. So I'm glad you mentioned that because…
Matt Lietz: Yeah. I respect you guys for what you do in terms of the value added type services.
Because I know as a software company your bread and butter is your product. But for you guys to step out and say – and having sold a few services in my day not it's not always the most profitable thing to do. It's really not.
Clate Mask: You're exactly right.
Matt Lietz: In fact, when I look at you guy's pricing I'm just, it really is and I can tell without a doubt you guys are – have that kind of care for your customer's success. It's a long term play as well; you guys know the more successful your customers are.
Clate Mask: The longer they stay with us and yeah, sure.
Scott Martineau: I think one of the challenges is just business owners don't come out of the womb so to speak with any required skills, there's no degree you have to get. It's just the school of hard knocks.
Matt Lietz: Nobody prepares you for it.
Scott Martineau: Yeah. So that's where the success method – the small business success method focuses on. At the very beginning it's helping people understand what should I even be looking at. Clate talked about the importance of sales early on. That's the first questions lots of business owners have; where do I even start?
What key thing should I be watching in my business, and how do I know if those things are working? Even the most basic of understanding that visibility in their business is just lost on a lot of business owners. That's a horrible place to…
Matt Lietz: It is, and especially when you have – I made the mistake a few times of starting little ventures that were we have this idea to create this widget with no idea not only how to make the widget, but do people even want this darn thing. You get it and – this is a shoddy widget, nobody cares. It sometimes feels like there's just so many things that can be overwhelming. But just to get back to the same point, it's just start with the basics. I love the whole lean start up methodology, which is just figure that thing out first before you start building. It's whatever you got to do; create a landing page
with the offer of what it is that you're offering, and send some paid traffic to it and see what percentage of people are clicking that little button. Then on the other end say we're going to start soon, we'll email you when it's ready. But at least you'll know if people care about what it is. I like to start with before we – and sometimes we'll create products where we're like this is what our people need. But also looking at what do people really want, and once you get going you've got enough customers you'll start to know what to create based on what they're asking for. Same with your value added services, et cetera.
Clate Mask: Matt, you've accomplished a great deal of success, you got your – your company's got 50 employees, you have millions in revenue, you made the Inc. 500 list.
Scott Martineau: It was billions, Clate. It was actually billions.
Clate Mask: Did I say millions? [Overlapping conversation] So by anybody's measures you've accomplished a ton of success, and I'm sure a lot of people listening are saying that's where I'm going to be in a few years or next, wherever they are.
We say at Infusionsoft, we say all the time, "Look, it's for us helping you succeed is about growing sales, saving time, and then enjoying the life that you want to have." So when you look at that and say gross sales, save time, enjoy life. Does that – I'm not – I want to hear what your version of success is. What's your version of success, and help us understand?
Matt Lietz: That's a great question. One of my all-time favorites, Bob Dylan he has a quote that says, "A man is a success if he wakes up in the morning, and he goes to sleep at night, and in between he gets to do what he wants to do." That was not the case for the first how many years [overlapping conversation].
Clate Mask: You didn't start that way?
Matt Lietz: No, did not start that way, and I'm still working my tail off. We're excited about what we're doing and really focused now on scaling it up. But it's – it has been largely in part of Infusionsoft and the other part just having amazing team behind us. I was always someone who would say all the time I love to travel, but I never did it.
I would always come up with the excuse I'm too busy, and actually my little sister she and her husband they're the explorers, they're the travelers. Every year they go on these crazy, exotic trips, and every year I'm, "No, I'm just too busy, sis." She hit me up this last year, and she's, "Matt, we're getting ready to have kids. This is our last big adventure. We're going to Zambia, and we're going to go canoeing on the – in between Zambia and Zaire or Zimbabwe rather on the Zambezi River. There's a lot of Z's there. So it was a three-day canoe trip, a safari, but we actually – hippopotamus, it was unbelievable. I had six weeks and I thank Cody and the rest of the team allowing me to do this. But six weeks just started all the way in Ireland, ended up in Africa, and just trip of a lifetime. Without – that's the kind of thing it's hard to do unless you've built that business, and you got things going, and you got your automation, and you got all that.
But barely made it out alive, but it was definitely a trip of a lifetime.
Scott Martineau: Then Bahamas this week right? Or going to…?
Matt Lietz: Yeah. Going to the Bahamas, super excited about. Got a – I don't know when this is going to air, but I'm just going to announce it public. I'm popping the question in the Bahamas; so this better – it's not live is it?
Clate Mask: That's awesome [overlapping conversation].
Matt Lietz: We're in trouble.
Clate Mask: No, that's awesome, congratulations. I love hearing about vacations. That's one of the things that business owners just end up sacrificing, totaling neglecting is vacation. They feel like the business is going to fall apart while they're gone. If they do go on vacation they're worrying, stressing, obsessing about the business the entire time. So hats off to you for being able to take a [overlapping conversation].
Matt Lietz: No, thank you guys. I mean that in all seriousness. Without these self-perpetuating systems that are running 24 hours I don't know how that situation would ever happen. So thank you for, that was a great trip.
Scott Martineau: That's for what you're doing in the world. It's awesome.
Clate Mask: Yeah, congratulations on your success, and thanks for spending a little time to share it with us. For the advice you gave to our listeners who are somewhere in their journey of small business success they're hearing themselves in your story, and that's a really cool thing for you to share that with them. I know that you've probably heard this, I've heard it. When we tell our story people say, "Man, when I heard that I needed that so bad at that moment. I was about ready to quit, I was about ready to throw the towel in. But it just gave me a little hope for what was ahead." Then they push through it. That's what – I think that's one of the things that we love about entrepreneurship is it does really – it does really push you to your limits, and gets you to a place where beyond what maybe you thought you could do. Then you do it and you're like that was awesome, the rush and the thrill of success as you get through that is great. Then you see what else you can take on because you're able to get through that last challenge. So thanks for sharing those things with us.
It was fun to hear your story, and good luck next week. Sounds like you got a big week ahead; so hope that goes great.
Matt Lietz: Hopefully, she says yes. If not, we have to edit that post-production. [Laughter]
Clate Mask: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing with us. So Matt the business is Clever Investor, achieved a bunch of success. Thanks for sharing that with our listeners on the things you're doing, for the advice you're giving, for inspiring people, and excited to see what you accomplish next.
Matt Lietz: For those of you who want to learn more we've actually created a video showing an advanced technique for the campaign builder, which we've used with a lot of success at Clever Investor. So if you go to smallbusinesssuccess.com, where you'll find a free content video to help you utilize Infusionsoft in your business for bigger profits, and a happier lifestyle.
Clate Mask: Alright, thanks everybody for listening into the Small Business Success podcast. Don't forget to rate on iTunes and share and subscribe.
We look forward to the next podcast. Make sure you tune in.